After we got settled, I opened the interview by asking Denise to tell me something about herself.
Denise: My name is Denise and I am currently job hunting for a public health research position. I have my Masters in International Health from Johns Hopkins School of Public Health and graduated from Amherst College with a BA in Biology and Women's Studies. I love to bake, knit (I actually have a part-time knitting business - www.niseyknits.com <http://www.niseyknits.com>), sing, dance
and I just picked up running.
So I have an almost 3 year old son. He'll be 3 next week and he's pretty fun. I'm a pretty laidback kind of person, taking things as they come. So when it came to parenting, I sort of took the same approach. I don't think I could have ever been prepared for it. So when we found out that we were expecting, I bought the books and read as much as I could, did a lot of research, and then just played it all by ear.
Nechama: Wow - I think that all parents, whatever the particulars of their lives can identify with that whirlwind feeling. Does your approach always work for you? Or are there times when it feels a bit overwhelming?
Denise: I think it gets particularly overwhelming when the child is going through a growth spurt/developmental change because you've gotten used to them doing things one particular way and all of a sudden they start to change. For instance, when my son started throwing tantrums, saying no, and just being unreasonable about everything (or so it seemed to me). He is very easygoing, super friendly, very kind, and just easy to deal with. So when he would cry at the slightest thing, start throwing a tantrum, refuse to eat and all that, I was at my wits' end as to how to deal with him.
But then I realized that what had worked 6 months ago would probably not work now because he's changing and developing emotionally. Of course I have NO prior experience with children, so all this is new to me. We had to read a little, hear from some other parents whose children are a few months ahead, and also get some feedback from his teachers at daycare who are trained in early childhood development.
Nechama: I completely get that. Again, every parent I know can identify with that experience. So do you feel better equipped now whenever a growth spurt comes up? Are there some general approaches to handling the unexpected from him that work consistently?
Denise: My husband and I keep joking that our son is becoming a "real human being now" because we still remember when we had to do everything for him. I think constantly remembering that it is normal and natural for him to change because that's just how nature goes makes it easier for me.
And I also have to remember that now that he can talk and sort of voice his wants and needs, I need to try and talk things out with him, while still making it clear to him that I'm the parent and in all instances I'm doing my best for him. Sometimes it would require a firm no, and I should be prepared to deal with the tears and feet-stomping that comes with it.
But sometimes, talking things out with him and making deals actually work. He loves to read, so usually we can get him to listen to something we suggest if we tell him that we'll read a book or two for him. Other times it just has to be, "No, it's bedtime, and you have to sleep so you are well-rested for tomorrow."
Yesterday, we watched a cartoon with him, and he wanted to watch more after it was over. But it was way past his bedtime, and we had to explain the concept of "there's a time for everything" to him. Every situation has it's own intricacies. But now that he has developed language skills, explaining things to him and making some form of trade usually helps.
Nechama: Yes! The good news is that as our kids' ability to challenge us develops, so does their ability to communicate on a more sophisticated level. So the opportunity for balance is there. Speaking of balance, how do you juggle being a parent and working away from home?
Denise: I've worked at two different places after our son was born, and it was a little tough. We had to work out a schedule that made sense for both of us. My husband is a software engineer, so her has more flexibility in the mornings. So we realized that it worked well if he took care of our son in the mornings, waking him up, feeding him, etc. and dropping him off at daycare. And I would pick our son up after work and take care of him in the evenings. That arrangement has worked very well for us. So far, our son doesn't have a lot of extracurricular activities, so it makes things a little easier. I'm sure that once he's older and into sports, clubs, etc., it would get a bit more hectic.
As for the emotional side, I love the fact that he gets to interact with kids his age, and I get the time to work on my profession and job. I miss him a lot. But it makes the reunion at the end of the day much sweeter.
Nechama: I can imagine! Do most of your friends have kids?
Denise: Right now, quite a few of them do. But we were the first in our circle, so our son is the oldest. A couple of them have 15 month olds, and some have 8 month olds.
Nechama: And do most of them work outside the home too?
Denise: Yes, they do. I think they also use a mix of drop-in daycare and nanny care for their kids.
Nechama: I have found that of all the circumstantial nuances in parents' lives, whether or not all parents work outside the home is a deciding factor in parents connecting. Do you think that's true? The reason I ask is that it actually feels like a sensitive topic that divides parents. There seem to be insecurities and judgments that may come up for parents in both kinds of households. I would love to hear your perspective on that... if you agree or not.
Denise: As for the insecurities and judgements, I can definitely see that happening. If you are the one working outside the home a lot, you start to feel guilty that you are not spending enough time with your child. If you are the one at home, you might start begrudging that fact because you look at all the hard work you put into your education and your career up to that point and wonder if you are just wasting it all away, especially given that this economy is not too kind to people with large gaps in their work history.
Nechama: This is such a complex topic and, I think, so needing of attention. I am almost 49yo and have a 23yo and a 3yo. It is clear to me from getting to know many parents over the past couple of decades, that all parents have much more in common than not, all moms have much more in common than not, and any two co-parents generally have more in common than not. And yet, there is so much defensiveness within each of these...
Denise: oh yeah, absolutely!
Nechama: I just think it would be so helpful if we could start highlighting what we have in common in a way that could open up connection and support channels between all types of parents... So I guess I'm starting with you. As I listen to you, it just feels like you might have some insights on the topic. Any thoughts you'd like to share?
Denise: Oh I think we are all jealous of each other and we inadvertently make each other feel guilty of the choices we've made, especially SAHMs and moms who work outside the home. I find it very glaring when I read narratives by SAHMs who say "i'm so fulfilled because this is the best thing ever," and vice-versa from moms who work outside the home.
I think most moms in this generation grew up with the feminist movement ringing true in our heads and hearts. So we went to college and grad school, started working and became all that we could be. But then when we get married and have children, we have to make that choice. Do you want to be there 24/7 to raise your child? Or, do you want to raise your child and work part-time or full-time?
And I think that each of us has different things that motivate us. So what's good for mom A will not necessarily feel good for mom B. I don't think every mom wants to be a SAHM. And I don't think every mom wants to be working full-time in the workforce either. And truth be told, the workforce is not conducive to parenting at all, and moms end up getting the wrong end of the stick.
So some SAHMs may feel (not all the time, but on a few occasions) that they have let somebody down by making the choice they did. And moms who work may feel (on a few occasions) that they aren't there for their child as much as they could be. I'm not sure there is a right answer in there at all. But I often say that if you make a decision based on the information you have, stick with it. it's the best decision for you at that time. If something new comes up and you want to change directions or realign a bit, also go for it. There is no tried and true method that will fit every personality out there.
I know I cannot be a full-time SAHM. I love being with other professionals in my field, talking through ideas, working on projects and all that fun stuff. But I also don't relish the idea of working 8-5, driving through rush hour traffic and scrambling to get home to make dinner. It's a drag. In an ideal world, I would get a part-time position in my field where I worked half-days or worked just 3 days a week.
My husband and I still joke about how each time our son is napping, the house is quiet and peaceful, like we don't have any kids. Then when he wakes up we are like, "whoa, who is this one and where did he come from?" But it's because we had our rhythm set before our son came. And we have to adjust that rhythm to accommodate him. It's hard to make that adjustment though. And it takes time.
Nechama: Thank you so so much for that powerful analysis! It is so important to recognize that, in general, 'all or nothing' choices are often much more complicated than we would like them to be. And, adjusting the rhythm of our lives to include our children is no small feat.
That rhythm adjustment is the common denominator all parents have as they consider the options life offers them. I wonder what would happen if dialogue with and about parents focused on that rhythm adjustment piece instead of the logistical differences in our lifestyles.
I'm guessing if I were to suggest an idea to someone, I would say, "you could try this and that and see how it works for you. We tried it and after a few go-arounds, it worked. You might need to modify it a bit. But it's worth a look." It doesn't sound judgmental or critical, and it comes off as just another idea to have in your parenting toolbox.
Denise: Same to you Nechama.
So I have an almost 3 year old son. He'll be 3 next week and he's pretty fun. I'm a pretty laidback kind of person, taking things as they come. So when it came to parenting, I sort of took the same approach. I don't think I could have ever been prepared for it. So when we found out that we were expecting, I bought the books and read as much as I could, did a lot of research, and then just played it all by ear.
Nechama: Wow - I think that all parents, whatever the particulars of their lives can identify with that whirlwind feeling. Does your approach always work for you? Or are there times when it feels a bit overwhelming?
Denise: I think it gets particularly overwhelming when the child is going through a growth spurt/developmental change because you've gotten used to them doing things one particular way and all of a sudden they start to change. For instance, when my son started throwing tantrums, saying no, and just being unreasonable about everything (or so it seemed to me). He is very easygoing, super friendly, very kind, and just easy to deal with. So when he would cry at the slightest thing, start throwing a tantrum, refuse to eat and all that, I was at my wits' end as to how to deal with him.
But then I realized that what had worked 6 months ago would probably not work now because he's changing and developing emotionally. Of course I have NO prior experience with children, so all this is new to me. We had to read a little, hear from some other parents whose children are a few months ahead, and also get some feedback from his teachers at daycare who are trained in early childhood development.
Nechama: I completely get that. Again, every parent I know can identify with that experience. So do you feel better equipped now whenever a growth spurt comes up? Are there some general approaches to handling the unexpected from him that work consistently?
Denise: My husband and I keep joking that our son is becoming a "real human being now" because we still remember when we had to do everything for him. I think constantly remembering that it is normal and natural for him to change because that's just how nature goes makes it easier for me.
And I also have to remember that now that he can talk and sort of voice his wants and needs, I need to try and talk things out with him, while still making it clear to him that I'm the parent and in all instances I'm doing my best for him. Sometimes it would require a firm no, and I should be prepared to deal with the tears and feet-stomping that comes with it.
But sometimes, talking things out with him and making deals actually work. He loves to read, so usually we can get him to listen to something we suggest if we tell him that we'll read a book or two for him. Other times it just has to be, "No, it's bedtime, and you have to sleep so you are well-rested for tomorrow."
Yesterday, we watched a cartoon with him, and he wanted to watch more after it was over. But it was way past his bedtime, and we had to explain the concept of "there's a time for everything" to him. Every situation has it's own intricacies. But now that he has developed language skills, explaining things to him and making some form of trade usually helps.
Nechama: Yes! The good news is that as our kids' ability to challenge us develops, so does their ability to communicate on a more sophisticated level. So the opportunity for balance is there. Speaking of balance, how do you juggle being a parent and working away from home?
Denise: I've worked at two different places after our son was born, and it was a little tough. We had to work out a schedule that made sense for both of us. My husband is a software engineer, so her has more flexibility in the mornings. So we realized that it worked well if he took care of our son in the mornings, waking him up, feeding him, etc. and dropping him off at daycare. And I would pick our son up after work and take care of him in the evenings. That arrangement has worked very well for us. So far, our son doesn't have a lot of extracurricular activities, so it makes things a little easier. I'm sure that once he's older and into sports, clubs, etc., it would get a bit more hectic.
As for the emotional side, I love the fact that he gets to interact with kids his age, and I get the time to work on my profession and job. I miss him a lot. But it makes the reunion at the end of the day much sweeter.
Nechama: I can imagine! Do most of your friends have kids?
Denise: Right now, quite a few of them do. But we were the first in our circle, so our son is the oldest. A couple of them have 15 month olds, and some have 8 month olds.
Nechama: And do most of them work outside the home too?
Denise: Yes, they do. I think they also use a mix of drop-in daycare and nanny care for their kids.
Nechama: I have found that of all the circumstantial nuances in parents' lives, whether or not all parents work outside the home is a deciding factor in parents connecting. Do you think that's true? The reason I ask is that it actually feels like a sensitive topic that divides parents. There seem to be insecurities and judgments that may come up for parents in both kinds of households. I would love to hear your perspective on that... if you agree or not.
Denise: As for the insecurities and judgements, I can definitely see that happening. If you are the one working outside the home a lot, you start to feel guilty that you are not spending enough time with your child. If you are the one at home, you might start begrudging that fact because you look at all the hard work you put into your education and your career up to that point and wonder if you are just wasting it all away, especially given that this economy is not too kind to people with large gaps in their work history.
Nechama: This is such a complex topic and, I think, so needing of attention. I am almost 49yo and have a 23yo and a 3yo. It is clear to me from getting to know many parents over the past couple of decades, that all parents have much more in common than not, all moms have much more in common than not, and any two co-parents generally have more in common than not. And yet, there is so much defensiveness within each of these...
Denise: oh yeah, absolutely!
Nechama: I just think it would be so helpful if we could start highlighting what we have in common in a way that could open up connection and support channels between all types of parents... So I guess I'm starting with you. As I listen to you, it just feels like you might have some insights on the topic. Any thoughts you'd like to share?
Denise: Oh I think we are all jealous of each other and we inadvertently make each other feel guilty of the choices we've made, especially SAHMs and moms who work outside the home. I find it very glaring when I read narratives by SAHMs who say "i'm so fulfilled because this is the best thing ever," and vice-versa from moms who work outside the home.
I think most moms in this generation grew up with the feminist movement ringing true in our heads and hearts. So we went to college and grad school, started working and became all that we could be. But then when we get married and have children, we have to make that choice. Do you want to be there 24/7 to raise your child? Or, do you want to raise your child and work part-time or full-time?
And I think that each of us has different things that motivate us. So what's good for mom A will not necessarily feel good for mom B. I don't think every mom wants to be a SAHM. And I don't think every mom wants to be working full-time in the workforce either. And truth be told, the workforce is not conducive to parenting at all, and moms end up getting the wrong end of the stick.
So some SAHMs may feel (not all the time, but on a few occasions) that they have let somebody down by making the choice they did. And moms who work may feel (on a few occasions) that they aren't there for their child as much as they could be. I'm not sure there is a right answer in there at all. But I often say that if you make a decision based on the information you have, stick with it. it's the best decision for you at that time. If something new comes up and you want to change directions or realign a bit, also go for it. There is no tried and true method that will fit every personality out there.
I know I cannot be a full-time SAHM. I love being with other professionals in my field, talking through ideas, working on projects and all that fun stuff. But I also don't relish the idea of working 8-5, driving through rush hour traffic and scrambling to get home to make dinner. It's a drag. In an ideal world, I would get a part-time position in my field where I worked half-days or worked just 3 days a week.
My husband and I still joke about how each time our son is napping, the house is quiet and peaceful, like we don't have any kids. Then when he wakes up we are like, "whoa, who is this one and where did he come from?" But it's because we had our rhythm set before our son came. And we have to adjust that rhythm to accommodate him. It's hard to make that adjustment though. And it takes time.
Nechama: Thank you so so much for that powerful analysis! It is so important to recognize that, in general, 'all or nothing' choices are often much more complicated than we would like them to be. And, adjusting the rhythm of our lives to include our children is no small feat.
That rhythm adjustment is the common denominator all parents have as they consider the options life offers them. I wonder what would happen if dialogue with and about parents focused on that rhythm adjustment piece instead of the logistical differences in our lifestyles.
Denise: Yes, what
adjustments you've made, how it's working for you, how else you think
it could work better... exchanging those ideas and trying out new ways
to make the rhythm work.
Nechama: I agree! Do you get the opportunity to exchange those kinds of ideas
with friends?
Denise: I have no problems chatting with my friends about mothering and the things we do that have worked. However, I have noticed that people are sensitive about sharing those ideas because sometimes it might come off as a criticism of what they are currently doing. I felt that when our son was newly born and I thought I was doing my best. And I'm always worried that others might also think that way. So finding that fine balance between sharing and judging is also essential.
Denise: I have no problems chatting with my friends about mothering and the things we do that have worked. However, I have noticed that people are sensitive about sharing those ideas because sometimes it might come off as a criticism of what they are currently doing. I felt that when our son was newly born and I thought I was doing my best. And I'm always worried that others might also think that way. So finding that fine balance between sharing and judging is also essential.
Nechama: So true! Any suggestions on how to get there?
Denise: Hmm... That's a tough one. Apart from your friend bringing it up i think mentioning it without sounding like a know-it-all would help. I
have a friend who always prefaces something with "in my humble
opinion", "i think", "this is what works for me", and I can see that
she's trying to make us aware that she isn't forcing her opinions on us. But that often seems very me-centered and gets me a little irritated.
I'm guessing if I were to suggest an idea to someone, I would say, "you could try this and that and see how it works for you. We tried it and after a few go-arounds, it worked. You might need to modify it a bit. But it's worth a look." It doesn't sound judgmental or critical, and it comes off as just another idea to have in your parenting toolbox.
Nechama: Do
you think that there is a mindset or particular perspective that could
help all of us shift any internal guilt, judgment, etc. that get in the way of connecting naturally with others who may
have a different child-rearing approach or lifestyle?
Denise: I think realizing that we are all doing the best we can at the moment
will make us a little less sensitive to the perceived
judgement of others, and might make us willing to listen to others too.
But both the giver and receiver have to have that mindset. The
giver of the advice cannot think that they know it all. They did the
best they could in light of the information and resources they had at
that point.
I think most people are doing the same, figuring out what works for their family setup and schedule, based on the info and resources they have access to. If we are mindful of that fact, it might go a long way to easing the guilt we feel about the decisions we've made when it comes to raising our children.
I think most people are doing the same, figuring out what works for their family setup and schedule, based on the info and resources they have access to. If we are mindful of that fact, it might go a long way to easing the guilt we feel about the decisions we've made when it comes to raising our children.
Nechama: Beautifully said! Thank you for that! Is there anything else you would like to offer our readers before we run out of time?
Denise: Parenting is a new experience for everyone. So take your time
with it. You will make mistakes. So don't beat yourself
about it. And have fun with it (as much as you can anyway). it's new,
it's different, and you have to adjust how you do things. I only have a
3 yr old, so I can only speak to that. I'll let you know how I feel when he hits his pre-teen and teen years.
Nechama: Thank you for all that you shared! Have a wonderful connected day!
Denise: Same to you Nechama.
